Buying guide for CNC machine for stone fabrication (part 6)
Most CAD/CAM software for stone CNC work center is crap
If you have missed the previous parts or want to re-read then click here for part 1. part 2. part 3. part 4. part 5. part 6. part 7.
The CAD/CAM software is driving your CNC machine. Without software your CNC machine is basically worthless.
CAD drawing showing curved bar countertop
CAD software is to accurately draw your kitchen countertops, vanity or staircase or what ever else you’re producing. The CAM software is using your CAD drawing or parts of it to make a CNC program. The CNC program contains all information the CNC machine needs to do the work on your stone as you want. It tells the CNC machine which tool to pickup, what RPM to run the tool, where to start, where to finish, when to start the water, when to stop the water and so on. That is is just a very simplified explanation. What really is going on behind the scenes is a bit more complicated and I won’t go into detail here also it is not that important for the CNC programmer or operator.
So the basic routine goes like this:
- digitize/measure template
- draw in CAD
- export to a DXF(data exchange file)
- import DXF to CAM and make CNC program
- send CNC program to machine
- setup machine
- run (hey hey not you I meant run the machine)
CAM software showing stone top on machine table
It probably would take a whole book for each of the points above to give you a basic idea. I’m planing to go into a bit more detail in future posts.
The points 2 and 4 are the most critical ones. If you’re already using CAD software in your stone business then there is no reason to learn another CAD software unless you are not happy with the one you already have. What I’m trying to say is that you can probably ignore the CAD software which ships with the CNC machine because your existing one is most likely more advanced.
CAD drawing kitchen countertop
That is different for the CAM software which includes a post-processor which is just another piece of software. That post-processor is programmed for that particular CNC machine. More advanced user may say ….hey you can get any CAM software and write your own post-processor…. yes I know you can but for most it is too time consuming and you just want to run the CNC and not play with it.
CAM software showing bar countertop on CNC machine table
There is plenty of CAM software out there which one way or another you could try to adapt it to your CNC machine but most CAM software is made for the metal or timber industry and lacks important features necessary for Granite and Marble processing.
Most prospective first time buyers of CNC machines for stone don’t know or don’t realize how important the CAD/CAM software package is to efficiently produce CAD drawings and CNC programs.
Unfortunately the CAD/CAM software which comes with every CNC machine is produced only in very small quantities for a very small audience compared to professional CAD or other software packages which you can find on almost every computer. Proper beta testing is to expensive and to time consuming, that’s the reason why this software has so many bugs and hardly ever leaves Alpha or Beta state. We as end users are the guinea pigs testing the software in real live environment.
CNC machine crashed through granite countertop
CNC machine accidents and crashes due to bugs in the software are too common. Often the CNC programmer is getting wrongfully blamed because he does not have enough knowledge to see that the software should have warned him that he is about to crash the machine.
As I said before in another post this here is a new blog and I will not mention any company names. But you are welcome to leave me a comment and I’m more than happy to answer your questions in private.
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Thanks for your question. I’m afraid I can not be of much help to you as I have never used ISAC. What brand of CNC machine for stone do you have? Did you buy the CNC machine second hand? If so could you perhaps try to get training from the previous owner? What are you producing?
I don’t know which Italian CNC machine manufacturer are installing ISAC control systems. The manufacturers I know keep changing the controllers to keep up-to-date with technology from time to time. There are a lot of PDF Manuals on the ISAC website http://www.isacsrl.eu/DOWNLOAD.78+B6Jkw9MQ__.0.html perhaps you want to check them out first.
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#3 written by Andres 2 years ago2
Dear Juergen,
I bought the CNC in USA but i am from Chile, the CNC is not new i am
the second operator and the i dont know the first operator because i
boght the machine to a bank, the brand of my CNC is EAM…and the
model is CTEC-3, the software that comes with the machine is the
SIOMAG32 and the CAD CAM program is Graphic Interactive Editor, I need
to work with another software, because the software CADCAm tha comes
with the machine it is so poor, and is not friendly. Now i am working
with MASTERCAM, but the G code that return to me have some problems
when i enter to the machine. What do you recomend to me???. Do you
know any software CAD/CAM, to use??.
Thanks,and best regardsAndres Manzur
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Last time I have tried Mastercam it was not good for stonework. But this was many years ago, so Mastercam may have been improved since. Your problem with the G code and Mastercam is probably related to the fact that there is not an exact matching post-processor for your machine. Either the post-processor needs to be especially programmed to match your machine requirements or you need to find a CAM software which has a post-processor for your CNC which can be difficult.
This is a frustrating problem you have there and I’m not sure how I can help you.
The software I’m using at the moment is not the best but it works. I do know the programers personally and I’ll try to contact them to see if they have a post processor for your machine or if they are interested to program one for you.
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I have contacted the CAD/CAM Software company and they say that they don’t have a postprocessor for your type of machine. It would be too costly for them and you to program one for just one machine. I’m sorry not being able to help you. I guess you have to keep looking or trying to get Mastercam working with your machine properly.
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#6 written by Andres 2 years ago
Hello i am writting to you again in order to solve one problem that i
have with my machine. After that i wrote to you the last month, i
bought one software cad-Cam this sofware is BOB CAD CAM i don`t know
if you know it. Well i am learning to use this software but the g
codes that returns to me it is not the aproppiate to my machine, i
have talked to the company that sold me the sofware and they said to
me that the would make a pos procesator. But it hasnt worked. Well do
you know o could help to me to use this software?. Because i need to
dominate it. -
Sorry to hear that you have still problems. I have used Bob CAD many many years ago but only for one month or so. I did not like it at the time. In the meantime they have Version 24 out which has changed a lot since.
You did not say what exactly is not working. Perhaps you need to explain a bit more in detail.
So I’m not able to help you personally with BOB CAD but you can try to ask specific question in this great forum here: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/bobcad-cam/
There you’ll have better chances to find someone who can help you.You can also read through here http://www.bobcad.com/components/media/faq/v23/34_EditingPosts.pdf to learn how to manually change the post processor to suit your machine.
This video here is also a very good example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LZr7I5lTH8
Also on here http://www.bobcad.com/support/posts they say they will build a post processor for free for your machine. As you said they have done that for you but it is not working, so I guess you have to explain them exactly what your problem is and push them a bit to help you. As they say, it is part of your deal with them when you buy the software.
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#8 written by Derek 2 years ago
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#9 written by Jason Heritage 1 year ago
Hi all,
Cad Cam software is a perfect solution.
You need software that can draw and with use of a post processor to write specific G code to suit your machine.
Most software companies that supply this type of software should explain this throughout.
I have a CNC that does all my work.
I use CAD Cam software to draw, import DXF template and use multiple tool changes.
My software produces .PGM as the the machine code.
Different machines use different code….. (Also Made in Italy) ISO, PGM, ANC…ect..ect… this is only a machine code.Your post Processor will convert your software code into machine code.
The post Processor is the link between software and machine . It is how the software talks to the CNC
I make kitchens and acrylic bench tops. What I draw is exactly what the CNC will cut out including hotplates cut outs,, sinks cutouts, cabinetry carcass and under mounted sinks , I can even cut my logo into the bottom of all acrylic tops as my signature.
I use the software to run 4 different types of machine all with different machine language.
BUT be prepare to spend the money to be able to do this……………..I have spent $xoxoxox ………well a lot, plus $45000 just on different tooling.
BUT the CNC does all the work!!!
I am happy to explain more if required.
I am not a software seller… I am a software believer .
and user..Jason
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#10 written by boledan 1 year ago
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Hi Juergen,
i am using WCam2K to run a Bavelloni 323-5N, we have had 3 ungrades over the years and i am thinking of getting the newest as i wont to do more detailed work. most of the work it has dune is larger profiles 250- 400mm thick . it took a very long time to sort out the lettreing part of the programme , but we can know get good vee cuts . How do you find it works for you ? I have just moved my factory from the UK and set up in Sydney and am finding the local stone intresting to work,
regards Mark -
Hi Mark
welcome to this great country and good luck with setting up your factory in Sydney. You seem to be doing more monumental work which I have only limited experience with. My experience is more with all types of benchtops for residential and commercial projects although I have done a lot of letter engraving on headstones, letterbox plaques and for public places like e.g. the Bali Memorial in Kings Park.I’m using WCam2K as well although I don’t like that program as it has a lot of bugs and is not very user friendly. There is no proper documentation and the description for most functions is not clear and can only be figured out by trial and error which I think is what you are referring to as well.
A few years back I was also working with a Z.Bavelloni CNC machine, I think the model was 320-4. Hopefully they have improved the vacuum pump on your machine. Is yours a 5-axis machine? Did you bring the machine over from UK as well?
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Hi juergen,
i brought over a compleat factory from the Uk that took me 18 years to build up, the bavelloni has a 5th axis that tilts along the X by + and – 5 degrees for doing drainers.
i am at a point with Wcam which is love hate because as you have said there are bugs, its tuff to know which values to put were and the documention is poor so i am considering getting some one out here from DMR and up grading at the same which is a cost issue, or washing my hand of it and getting all new stuff. The new DMR web site shows great things some of which i have seen.
i am working with a guy here who has had some time working on the 3D CAD files that can be used for making parts building and was at the Sagrada Familia – Barcellona – Spain using W cam
Do you have an thoughts?
regards Mark -
#17 written by boledan 1 year ago1
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#18 written by N.Alagesan 1 year ago1
Juergen:
Hi Alagesan
I’m not sure what software you mean, Fagor control systems normally come with their own software specially programmed for the particular machine. Or do you mean the CAD/CAM software? Is this a new or second hand machine?Hi Mr.Juergen,
Many thanks for your reply.
Yes It’s a second hand machine & exactly same CAD/CAM software ,which is the best one for granite machining.
In India MASTER CAM is commercially available,is it o.k for this application.
Thanks,
N.Alagesan.
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#19 written by N.Alagesan 1 year ago
boledan:
You can buy WCam2K with post procesor exactly adjust to your machine, doesn’t metter if it’s Fagor, Siemens, ECS, GFanuc….., last week we set up completly new machine to work with WCam2K. It’s really good software and if someone can proper set up postprocesor can be very powerfull.Dear Mr.boledan,
Thanks for your reply.
W CAM 2K software did you use at granite cutting CNC machines & do you have any opinion about MASTER CAM for this..
Thanks,
N.Alagesan.
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#20 written by natarajan alagesan 1 year ago
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Alagesan
I have no experience with MasterCAM and not sure if it is a suitable program for stone manufacturing. Most of the general CAM software is made for the timber and metal industry and is lacking certain functions needed for granite countertop production. Things like polishing cycles, draining board sequences are mainly found in CAM software for the stone industry only. Most CNC machine ship with their own software package and some use Wcam2k as mentioned by boledan above. I also use Wcam2K for years although it is not a good program, has many bugs, bad manual, not user friendly… but once you know all the problems the software can do the job required.
The most important thing you have to look out for is that the software comes with a post processor suitable for your machine or at the very least the option to create your own which can be a big task and very time consuming.
Alagesan perhaps you should ask the people were you bought the CNC machine from what software they have used and why it wasn’t included with the machine.
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I’ve just done a quick Google search and found following websites about CAD/CAM/CIM CNC software for the granite and marble stonemasonry companies.
http://www.planit.com/stone
http://www.ddxgroup.com/en/software/easystone
http://www.alphacam.com/stone
http://www.dmrsoftware.com/pages/WCam2KEng.htmlThere are many others like BobCam, SolidCam, MasterCam or CAMWorks which are suitable for many industries but NOT specialized in stone and may not have all the functions and features you’d like or need. (edge polishing cycles, draining board polishing…)
Just check the above websites and ask each of them if they have a post-processor for your particular machine and if they have a demo version for you to try.
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Hi Mark
good luck getting Remo or Simone from DMR out here to Australia, I tried many times but they are not interested. I instead went to Italy in 2008 and spend a day with Remo in Bergamo at the Prussiani factory to solve some of the major bugs I found. I think I had a list of about 60 bugs, some of them were only minor or cosmetic and Remo fixed some of them straight away on the day and others were fixed later. Unfortunately Remo doesn’t talk to me since then or answers any of my emails so I’m not getting any updates anymore and I’m now stuck with a half finished software. Service and listening to customers complains is important in any business to improve your product but obviously not for DMR.
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#24 written by natarajan alagesan 1 year ago
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Hi N.Alagesan
I think you may have a Prussiani Oceania which normally comes with a Fagor control system which has the necessary software already installed. Nothing else required there.
You mentioned Stonecam 3D which is Prussiani’s name for Wcam2k which is your CAD/CAM software to make your parts drawing and to post process the drawings into the G-Code.
The only other thing you may need is WinDNC to transfer the files from the office computer to the machine.
Please let me know what exactly you are missing.
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#26 written by natarajan alagesan 1 year ago
Dear Mr,.Jueregen,
Thanks indeed.
The thing is we don’t have Stonecam 3D software for converting drawing in to G code & already we downloaded the WinDNC from Fagor’s website.
Moreover availability of Stonecam 3D/Wcam2K is a problem here in India.Any other possible way to get this software from other sources
By your experience can you please tell us which software in general like Matercam/Unigraphics/Catia which is better?
If you have WCam2K/Stonecam 3D software ,we are ready to pay and get…
Thanks,
N.Alageasn.
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#27 written by boledan 1 year ago
Hi.
Regarding Wcam2K I had few appointment with Remo and Simone (last one week ago).
Jurgen, you wrote that you have list of 60 bugs about WCam2K – I’ll realy happy if you share with me this list because in the pas I also created one but now I have no mor bugs to fix. Important question is: the problem are come form Wcam2k or post procesor. I have newest version (beta) of Wcam2K and it really working propelly, I receive a lot of complain about other software like MAstercam, DDX etc. Like you said – with Wcam2K you can make any job in stone processing. Again I’m asking you to send me list of bugs – I’ll try to help you with software or post procesor. -
Hi boledan
Thanks for your interest in my list of Wcam2K bugs and errors. As I said that was back in 2008 and I’m sure Remo and Simone would have done a lot of changes in the software since then and my list would not apply anymore.
When I visited Remo in Italy in 2008 I actually left a copy of the bug list with him to get everything else fixed what we didn’t get done on the day while I was there.
Unfortunately I haven’t received any updates since then and my requests were not answered. In the meantime I learned to live with the limitations in Wcam2K which is still the late 2008 version.
I hope that the current Wcam2K (Stonecam 3D) version has less problems and that the users are more happy with it now then me.
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boledan:
But you can update your version any time – just download form DMR software website.DMR never gave me access to the download area. I have registered twice to get access to the customer area around 2009-2010 while the old DMR website was still active but I was never send the login details. I guess that customers have only access during the warranty period but not after.
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I’m sure Remo has a reason for not giving me support or new versions. Despite that I just went to his website but I cannot find anything to register there to get access to the user area.
Don’t worry about it, I’m not even sure if I would want to try another version of Wcam2k.
Almost every time I did try a new version one of the machines had a bad crash and Remo never took responsibility for it. We lost thousands of $$$ because of Wcam2K. But keep in mind that this was between 2006-2008 and things may have improved since then.
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#33 written by boledan 1 year ago
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Hi Jurergen and others,
Having followed this thread this week i can relate to what you have gone through and would agree that back in 2006 to 2008 the product was very unsorted. I took 2 years to get the lettering to work and still feel that it could have a few improvements. My experiences may have been due having to go through Bavelloni who at the time were not in a good place and had got hold of wcam and sold it as Easymold to fill a gap in their own package of CAD/CAM.I was the first person in the uk to get the software so the uk engineers were learning day by day with me. I felt that cost was always the issue and because support was costing them it was in the “too hard pile” so we had to make do, it’s been like having a Ferrari with no wheels for Fiat money.
It should be noted that there are a lot things in Wcam 2K that most user s will never think of needing, this software will do all the things that anyone in the stone industry want’s so this rules out the need to have 5 of 6 different cam packages. I don’t like the CAD part of it so use my old LogoTag from Taglio . Training is the key to all things! This and support costs and I am planning to do this soon and Simone has given me a price to come here to Sydney, at which time I will get a post for my saw which has a ECS control. This could be something we work on together.
However as an over view the package works, yes it’s hard to use and is able to do things that a lot of others cannot at 3 or 4 time the price. -
Hello Everybody , i am very glad to finally find this blog, i am a user of Wcam2K for 8 years, i know it from the beginning and i must tell that the last version is a lot of better than the first, the key as Mark said is training, i use it to move a Donatoni Quadrix machine and a new machine manufactured in Greece , Elenis ArtZ400.I am open for discuss problems and solutions in the stone element working with disk router or lathe.
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Hi Charalampos
welcome to the blog. I’m always open for news about Wcam2k or any other CAD-CAM software. As I said above I’m still using an old version from 2008 and therefore cannot comment on whats new. So if you’d like to share whats new in Wcam2k that would be great.
What are you manufacturing with you CNC’s, monumental, artwork or benchtops?
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The latest news is available on the website of dmrsoftware, i do not have a fast way to analyze now the new features but i would say that you can do almost everything you may be asked to do. About the range of the work we do, is not specific i have made almost everything, from bathtubs, shower plates, basins, counterdrops, benchtops, fireplaces, bas reliefs, lettering,columns, etc.
Wcam2k is the most affordable cad cam to start. For special jobs that i cannot make ,we make gcode from outside, using Pro-Engineer or Catia, this may happen 2- 3 times a year, has a high cost but always logical, for example a very high detailed bathtub with finally cost material and work about 20.000 € the cost to produce a safe and fast code outside was 2000€. -
Hi Mark,
As you know working in wcam with stl files requires to take notice some parameters so, the cutting tool not to crash because the programme does not recognize how much material is being removed .I have made simple sinks and bath tubs using stl files and convex generatrice. but wcam sometimes as you know generates different toolpaths for the same drawings
. My previous post is for very demanding drawings that i cannot make myself.
I read a previous post of you,about your factory in Sydney, correct?
How much experience you have with wcam?
Is there any place to work for me?, here in Greece as you know all the jobs are in very big crisis.Check also my homemade website for the factory i work. http://sites.google.com/site/deonmarbles/homeBest regards
Charalampos -
#40 written by mark 11 months ago
Hi charalampos,
it would be good have you C V on file as we hope to have a lot of production in a few mouths time , please send to at stonecutting@gmail.com
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#41 written by alagesan 7 months ago
Dear Juregon,
In recent past we commissioned the Prussiani Golden Goal 301 3 axis working center in our factory.The machine is not new one and it bought from Norway and we don’t have any idea about previous working condition.
once commissioning over we tried to start up, but in Fagor CNC 8040 display show that axis locked when ever we press Jog button.
The OEM, and Local Fagor technician also tried to their best,but couldn’t spot the cause.Can you please tell us what may be the cause..
Regards,
N.Alagesan.
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difficult to say from here what is wrong there when not even the local Fagor technician can find the problem.
Does the machine move at all? Can you run a program on it? Which axis is causing the problem?
The quickest way to sort it out is contacting Prussiani directly, ask for Corrado, Massimo or Damiano. They have all been very helpful in the past when I had problems.
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Hello, i have a one CNC machine for stone, and i dont know wich programe i have to use, in fact i need a tuttorial o somthing like that, to use the CAD/CAM software. I am expecting for your response to my email. My CNC use the iso code. my machine is from italy, and the controller was made by isaac.
Thanks..
Andres Manzur